Fears and thoughts in South Africa

  • Lionel
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Re: Fears and thoughts in South Africa

3 years 10 months ago
#823181
All I will say on the vaccine is this is a serious decision, and people are (hopefully) making decisions based on what they all think is best for themselves and their loved ones. I dont think that ridiculing the decision, whatever it is, is warranted. If the decision we make, turns out to be the wrong one, then so be it....but no one should be demonized for it.

Not taking the vaccine could have consequences, just as taking it, could have consequences. I dont think that anyone has the "right" answer, to be honest.

My mum asked me what she should do. I advised her to do some research on it, and a whole lot of praying about it. But the choice, ultimately, is hers. She chose to take it. She is still fine. Thank God.

To each his own...
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  • TNaicker
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Re: Fears and thoughts in South Africa

3 years 10 months ago
#823182
Both my parents and in-laws have had both their Pfizer vaccines whilst the wife and my sister have had their first doses...personal decisions based on their specific pre-existing circumstances...my brother in Canada and his wife have long since been vaccinated...so, I'm the odd one out from all immediate family members...

My not having the vaccine is not because I think I know better...it stems from how much I don't know...don't know of immediate reaction to vaccine and long term effects...I have not once had the flu vaccine and only once, about 25 years ago did I get the flu...so, I've left it to my body to come up with the defence to whatever is out there and it has, so far, served me well...

Each person makes that decision for themselves...we are allowed free will or has that been removed for a supposed "greater good" by our supposed "betters"? If everyone I interact with closely has been vaccinated, I pose no risk to them as the vaccine will supposedly do its job...I alone carry the risk of illness if they are carriers despite vaccination...and when in public, I mask up, sanitise, social distance, etc to protect myself and others...so, I do the responsible actions...

The non-disclosure and no liability agreement the government signed with the suppliers was one of my initial concerns...further information about the efficacy (drops after 6 months) of the vaccines has added to my current aversion to be vaccinated...if more positive information comes to the fore, I may change my current stance...

To paraphrase @Lionel...to each their own...may those who have been vaccinated (and they include all those nearest and dearest to me) stay safe and healthy and not have any future negative effects...and may those who have not been vaccinated stay safe and healthy...even from infection from vaccinated persons...

Take care fellow Clanners...
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  • bayern
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Re: Fears and thoughts in South Africa

3 years 10 months ago
#823183
Lionel, this has been turned into a Political issue in the USA. The most recent spike is in the majority of cases, among the un-vaccinated people. Can one contract the Virus even if fully vaccinated, YES, but those vaccinated people are trying to give themselves a chance of survival.

What is the down-side of having/taking the vaccine, anybody - and how did you come to that conclusion?

Without wanting to sound facetious, if prayers really worked, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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  • bayern
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Re: Fears and thoughts in South Africa

3 years 10 months ago
#823184
Would like to add, most of the anti-vaxxers decisions are based on conspiracy theories, about Big Brother inserting people with micro-chips, metal sticking to their body, and the list goes on.

How many of "you" were against taking the Polio vaccine, back in the day?
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  • TNaicker
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Re: Fears and thoughts in South Africa

3 years 10 months ago
#823186
@bayern...no-one knows the downside be they short term or long term...what I have read is that efficacy does drop into the 80's after 6 months as that is how long we are currently into the vaccines...that could change as time passes...could be higher could be lower...and I will make a personal decision based on the information that comes out...

The vaccines currently lower the impact on becoming ill...but do not totally prevent a vaccinated person from becoming ill...so, yes, some positive impact offset by the unknowns of any longer term negative impact...

Take care and stay safe...

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  • bayern
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Re: Fears and thoughts in South Africa

3 years 10 months ago
#823187
@bayern...no-one knows the downside be they short term or long term...what I have read is that efficacy does drop into the 80's after 6 months as that is how long we are currently into the vaccines...that could change as time passes...could be higher could be lower...and I will make a personal decision based on the information that comes out...

The vaccines currently lower the impact on becoming ill...but do not totally prevent a vaccinated person from becoming ill...so, yes, some positive impact offset by the unknowns of any longer term negative impact...

Take care and stay safe...

TN, i think Israel is starting to administer a third jab, because, according to their studies, the efficacy does wane. Which vaccine are they administering, not sure.

Maybe this will be the new normal, third and probably more jabs, until the virus is eradicated. Will they ever eradicate this virus, maybe not, considering they have never eradicated the "common flu". This is just a more deadlier strain of the flu virus.
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  • PeterD
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Re: Fears and thoughts in South Africa

3 years 10 months ago
#823190
We are punters so should understand the odds.
If you don’t get vaccinated, there is a very high probability of contracting COVID-19, and if you do, you have a 5%- 30% chance, depending on age and health factors, of getting very ill. If you get very ill, a 10%- 30% chance of death.
If you are vaccinated while the majority aren’t, then you reduce your probability of catching it, but not hugely. However, your chances of getting very sick fall to low single figures %.
If the vast majority get vaccinated, then we can get to a point where the pandemic ends.
The downside of being vaccinated is a few out of every million people will have adverse effects, but admittedly we can’t yet know if that changes over the long term.
It’s likely that booster shots will be required.
The problem with saying that it’s a personal decision is that your decision impacts society at large.
Similarly, smoking is a personal decision, but not if you smoke in my vicinity.
Vaccination risks failing as a solution unless nearly everyone gets vaccinated.

I for one have told my employees in my small business that if they want bonuses at the end of the year, or any increases in salary in future, they must be vaccinated. No new hires who are not vaccinated.
Very soon I will refuse to shop anywhere that does not have a clear statement that the staff who serve me are vaccinated.
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  • mikesack
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Re: Fears and thoughts in South Africa

3 years 10 months ago - 3 years 10 months ago
#823191
Would like to add, most of the anti-vaxxers decisions are based on conspiracy theories, about Big Brother inserting people with micro-chips, metal sticking to their body, and the list goes on.

How many of "you" were against taking the Polio vaccine, back in the day?

LoL....Bayer, do the research for us and advise whether our esteemed Government back in the day set up a fund for adverse reactions to the Polio vaccines.
If God forbid someone does have an adverse reaction from the C. Vac , there is an amount of 250 BAR that has been allocated to pay out compensation for the injury or death. I read that somewhere.
However what has not been finalised is how the money will be paid out according to severity of illness like loss of nerve functions , Guillane Barr Syndrome, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome etcetera.
Last edit: 3 years 10 months ago by mikesack.

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  • manwatweet
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Re: Fears and thoughts in South Africa

3 years 10 months ago
#823192
We’ve got some anti-vaxxers and pro-vaxxers in the family. Most of the time you know beforehand who the anti-vaxxers are.............
They are mostly the guys that knows everything and argues about any shit.
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  • bayern
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Re: Fears and thoughts in South Africa

3 years 10 months ago
#823193
Would like to add, most of the anti-vaxxers decisions are based on conspiracy theories, about Big Brother inserting people with micro-chips, metal sticking to their body, and the list goes on.

How many of "you" were against taking the Polio vaccine, back in the day?

LoL....Bayer, do the research for us and advise whether our esteemed Government back in the day set up a fund for adverse reactions to the Polio vaccines.
If God forbid someone does have an adverse reaction from the C. Vac , there is an amount of 250 BAR that has been allocated to pay out compensation for the injury or death. I read that somewhere.
However what has not been finalised is how the money will be paid out according to severity of illness like loss of nerve functions , Guillane Barr Syndrome, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome etcetera.

Mike, i think most are conflating the long-term effects of having contracted the virus, with the after effects of taking the vaccine. A friend of mine was hospitalised, recovered and subsequently contracted asthma, so he was told by the physicians. Other side effects were muscular pain/sore legs and tiredness, the more common ones.

From being vaccinated, i had a severe headache, which didn't last long. Others may have experienced different after effects. I haven't noticed or felt additional after effects personally. Would like to hear from those who have experienced any adverse long term effect/s from the vaccine, please share.
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  • mikesack
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Re: Fears and thoughts in South Africa

3 years 10 months ago
#823194
Here is the article on getting compensated for adverse reactions...…………

mg.co.za/health/2021-04-21-how-south-afr...jury-fund-will-work/




How South Africa’s Covid vaccine injury fund will work









Aisha Abdool Karim Joan Van Dyk


21 Apr 2021




According to an Afrobarometer survey of 1 600 people, the majority of people do not trust the government to deliver safe vaccines. (Emmanuel Croset/AFP)





































South Africa has secured enough vaccine doses to vaccinate 46-million people against Covid-19, but the agreements to get shots into the country come with a catch.

To secure jabs, vaccine manufacturers require the government to exempt them at least partly from liability and potential lawsuits in the case of any severe side effects the shots may cause.

The solution? A no-fault compensation fund.

Research has shown these types of schemes can have tangible benefits such as fairly repaying people who are injured after they were vaccinated for the public good. They can also improve the public’s trust in vaccine programmes, found a 2020 study PLOS One study which analysed 23 schemes worldwide.

But the study also found that compensation schemes had some drawbacks, including that people have to wait for a long time before they are paid out and that many of these funds have strict rules when it comes to proving that a vaccine and a severe illness are linked.

Speaking to parliament on 14 April, Health Minister Zweli Mkhize said one of the conditions in the agreement with Johnson & Johnson — South Africa has secured 31-million of its doses — was that the regulations for the fund be published by 30 April. Mkhize said a similar condition had also been put forward by Pfizer, from which South Africa has procured 30-million doses.

On 15 April, the regulations for the Covid-19 Vaccine Injury Compensation Scheme were published for public comment. The document gave the public five days (until 19 April) to give their views on the funding scheme. This was a shorter period than normal because the Johnson & Johnson vaccines are expected to arrive this week.

One submission, from the Health Policy Initiative (HPI), criticised the regulations because they “contain minimal details and information on the specifics and cost of the proposed mechanism. This makes it difficult to comment on the mechanics of the fund, as mostly, it is still to be developed in the future,” the HPI argues.

The organisation also pointed out that although the compensation scheme has funding implications, the regulations are vague about how the scheme will be funded, “what financial contribution the public or others will actually make” and “whether said vaccine manufacturers will contribute to the fund or whether they are given special exemption … potentially leaving the entire financial burden of maintaining the fund to the state and in turn the public”.

What exactly is this fund?

If someone is harmed as a result of their vaccination, they can submit a claim to this compensation scheme, which will then pay them for the injury sustained. Each claim will be assessed by a panel of experts who will determine if the injury was caused by the vaccine.

Common side-effects associated with Covid vaccines include pain at the injection site, fever, fatigue, headache, muscle pain, chills and diarrhoea. The fund is designed to cover more rare and severe occurrences. So far this list only includes severe allergic reactions, which are extremely uncommon. There are concerns about a possible link between the AstraZeneca vaccine and unusual blood clots, which is being listed as a rare side-effect in Europe but it’s still unclear if this is caused by the vaccine. Similar claims are also being investigated regarding the Johnson & Johnson jab.

The idea is that South Africa’s system will allow people to be financially compensated without having to go to court. If a person is not satisfied with their award from the fund, they can then choose to file a claim through the legal system.

Importantly though, the funding scheme protects anyone involved from taking responsibility for the injury — so there’s no blame assigned in the “no-fault” scheme and people cannot file a claim against the vaccine manufacturer or the government without having claimed from the fund first.

The exact amount of money in the fund is not entirely clear, but on Monday Business Day reported that R250-million would be allocated to the fund for the first year, based on the expectation that 800 to 2 000 successful claims would be paid out. Bhekisisa could not confirm this information.

Retired chief justice Sandile Ngcobo is in charge of overseeing the fund and ensuring all claims are dealt with fairly. He headed up the Competition Commission’s health market inquiry into the private health sector.

Why do we have the fund?

Internationally, the deals to get Covid-19 vaccines directly from pharmaceuticals include provisions that protect these companies from claims made against them for side-effects of their jabs, the treasury said.

The deal vaccine maker AstraZeneca signed with the European Commission, for example, gave companies partial immunity to claims made against them, according to a commission statement.

Until last week, the legal responsibility for vaccine injuries that occur in South Africa’s public and private sectors lay with the manufacturer that supplied the jabs.

This no-fault compensation fund is the government’s response to having to take on some of the liability for potential serious adverse effects of the Covid-19 vaccines.

Worldwide, there are 25 no-fault compensation funds for vaccine injuries such as death, the 2020 PLOS One study found.

These funds usually cover a range of vaccines. South Africa’s fund is one of only two in the world that only covers injuries from Covid-19 vaccines. The other is the fund that the World Health Organisation (WHO) established for jabs secured through the international procurement mechanism, Covax. South Africa is not one of the 92 countries and territories that qualify to use the Covax facility because the country is too wealthy.

The specifics of deals made directly with pharmaceutical companies are not known because of strict secrecy rules, but the treasury says the health department has not signed any agreements that completely waive companies’ liability. The provisions do, however, require the government to provide “substantial” indemnity to claims that result from adverse effects”, the treasury says.

South Africa’s finance management laws don’t ordinarily allow for agreements that totally suspend indemnity for companies who enter into deals with the state. Exceptions can only be made if the minister involved (in this case the health minister) and finance minister both agree to it.

Who is eligible to access the fund?

The short answer: we don’t yet know who will qualify to get compensation from the fund.

We do know that you are entitled to submit a claim if:

● The injury was caused by a Covid vaccine registered or approved by the South African Health Products Regulatory Authority (Sahpra);

● The vaccine was procured and distributed by the government; and

● You received the jab at a government-listed vaccination site.

The health and finance ministers are tasked with determining the finer details of who is eligible for compensation, which injuries and vaccines will be covered, the period of the injuries that the fund will cover and the procedures of applying to the fund.

The fund is meant to provide compensation for “severe injuries resulting in permanent or significant injury, serious harm to a person’s health, other damage or death”, provided that these injuries were caused by the vaccine.

A serious adverse response is defined as any condition caused by a medication that: requires being admitted to hospital, a prolonged period in hospital, causes persistent or significant disability, is a birth defect, is life-threatening or results in death, according to the Medicines and Related Substances Act.

All vaccine injury schemes cover vaccine injuries that result in disability, health damage or death, the PLOS One study found.

Sahpra provides oversight and regulates the quality, safety and efficacy of medicine and medical devices. It is responsible continuously monitoring the safety of medical interventions and reviewing reports of adverse reactions.

Sahpra recently reviewed reports of unusual blood clots in people who received the Johnson & Johnson Covid vaccine. This was part of checks and balances introduced along with Covid vaccines to continuously monitor the jabs for any rare or severe side effects. A simultaneous review is being conducted by the US Food and Drug Administration.

On Saturday, Sahpra recommended that the pause of the Sisonke study, through which the Johnson & Johnson vaccine is being rolled out to 500 000 health workers, should be lifted, provided that certain conditions are met, such as the “screening and monitoring of participants who are at high risk” of the rare type of blood clotting disorder associated with this vaccine.

Such reviews are done to “assess the benefit-risk ratio of the medicines”, says Florah Matlala, who oversees pharmacovigilance at Sahpra. “Based on the outcomes of such assessments, different regulatory decisions are made, which include professional insert amendment, restricting access through prescribers or up-scheduling.”

Matlala says Sahpra’s role is more focused on ensuring the safety of the intervention and doesn’t extend to liability issues. Pharmaceutical liability cases must typically be dealt with through the consumer ombud and the legal system — something which the compensation fund minimises the need for.

Nicholas Crisp, the head of the health department’s National Health Insurance office, says the department’s team in the national immunisation safety expert committee, which is in charge of monitoring adverse events of vaccines, may eventually form part of the monitoring body for claims with the fund too.

How will the fund work?

The regulations published on 15 April leave the finer details of the fund’s management up to directives from the health department or committees it appoints.

The document gives the health department the right to decide whether to appoint a private company or a government entity to administer the fund.

It also gives people the options to approach the courts to sue a national or provincial government department, but only after applying for a claim with the fund. This is also the case for 65% of existing schemes globally, the PLOS One study found.

According to the regulations, people who are unhappy with the fund’s decisions can only go through the court system once an appeal to the fund is resolved. Vaccine manufacturers cannot be sued.

How much compensation will people who claim from the fund be entitled to?

If, for example, South Africa bases its fund on the United States’s vaccine injury fund, Crisp says the payout for vaccine injuries will be a set rate that is calculated based on the degree of disability.

Claims for death as a result of a vaccine would then, in principle, be a once-off payment whereas an ongoing disability such as paraplegia might be paid out in monthly installments.

The specifics of the pay-out system in South Africa will still be determined. In the US the vaccine injury fund covers medical expenses, income lost as a result of a vaccine injury and a capped fee for pain and suffering. Lawyers can claim fees from the fund too, according to the US Health Resources and Services Administration’s (HRSA) website.

In the US, manufacturers pay 75 cents (about R10) excise tax on each dose of vaccines covered by the scheme, and this money is used to pay people who are awarded compensation, says the HRSA. This tax is calculated based on how many diseases each vaccine prevents. So, the MMR vaccine will be taxed $2.25 (R32) because it prevents measles, mumps and rubella.

Crisp says a body such as the South African Social Security Agency may be used to compensate people monthly, but the government is also considering other fund models, including private insurers. Only Finland and Sweden use private insurers to administer their vaccine injury schemes.

The fund hinges on the Disaster Management Act, which is due to end in May, but ideally the fund could become a permanent feature that can mediate claims for all vaccine injuries in South Africa.


This story was produced by the Bhekisisa Centre for Health Journalism. Sign up for the newsletter.






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  • Lionel
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Re: Fears and thoughts in South Africa

3 years 10 months ago
#823196
Using PeterD's punting analogy...the challenge that I am deliberating is, you have a scenario of proven track record (my health status and the fatality rate of this virus) and a "first timer" in the field. I'm not sure what the short and long term effects are. We only have the "stable" comments to go by. It all depends on how one views those comments.

I registered for the vaccine, and will probably take it. But, I will be a very, very reluctant recipient.

The thought process that is tipping it in favor of taking the vaccine is, I'd rather suffer the consequences of trying to do the right thing, than suffer the consequences of over thinking this.
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